I WILL contact a friend who is pretty good with Internet / computer stuff and see if we can get the relevant pix up on the forum for you and others who might be interested.

Barns - yes, that was a cheap shot - apologies.

I have a saying related to the Specialty UK automotive business - "Don't look at the door - look at what came out of the doors".

Some of the BEST projects I've seen came out of barns! In fact for years [ in my early days - mid '60's ] I DID work from a barn. However, I now feel that I've paid my dues - and like you ,I COULD go back to working in a barn - but I'd rather not.

As I said previously [ and sincerely ] good luck with what you're doing.

So, what's happened to all the previous forum posters who were enquiring / passing comment on the Gullwing [ Ostermeier ] project? I thought you all might have been interested enough to ask questions about the project - seeing as we have it from the "horses mouth" as it were. Quite a few had their 5 cents worth to contribute when it was gossip or hearsay and the project's whereabouts were unknown. Where are those enquirers now? Lost interest, or "ghosts" in the system?

For the avoidance of future doubt, I will post the current status of the project next week - NO BS, NO smoke, NO mirrors - just facts that can easilly be authenticated.

At the end of the day 4/5 manufacturers cannot possibly supply Worldwide demand. We found this in Europe / UK with the Porsche 356 Speedster models [ and Cobra ] - but by the time [ 15 years ] all of the manufacturers went their own way and ignored their business rivals, it was too late and when the market shrank [ last 5 years ]some inevitably went to the wall. Part of the reason was that ALL of the manufacturers decided to make their own moulds and jigs, have tooling made for windscreens, frames and other parts - instead of intertrading common parts. The common thought was - "Why should I supply X or Y with MY windscreen frame to make it easy for them" [ are you listening Captain Kirk at Vintage? ]. Another way of looking at it was " IF I supply X or Y at a reasonable price, they will not bother to make jigs and I can supply them to recoup my development costs AND make a profit"!

ATB
Manfred

Yes it IS a bit of dilema about parts - that's basically the point of discussion we're at now.

As you quite rightly say, this industry thrives on products being "splashed". Whether you buy an original part and copy it, or buy another repro manufacturers part and copy it- the result is the same.

My point is that you have two choices as manufacturer of those parts. You either REFUSE to supply parts to other end users - in which case they will eventually have the parts made - and then that dilutes your "aftermarket" income; OR you accept that as inevitable and supply your own in house parts and get some return for your investment. OK you are helping to create competition if you supply that last little "wurzlegrommet" that is holding someone back, but I go back to my previous statement - can 4-5 manufacturers REALLY supply the whole of the USA / World market?

Glass is a case in point - we can buy off the shelf glass sets here in Germany - BUT if we invest $10K in moulds we can have ALL of the glass manufactured EXCLUSIVELY for us and the sell it on at a much better price than currently available. Everyone gains, and we get a return for our $10K investment from aftermarket sales. Keep it to ourselves and someone will inevitably go through the same process - and there's another set of moulds to compete with!

And then as I understand it, not all of the projects being mooted will have Mercedes running gear - some will prefer that approach - some will not.

It's a bit like the Cobra market here in the UK / EU. At the height RAM was producing 200 units a year - at that time there were probably 15 - 20 UK based Cobra manufacturers, but all made a healthy business - until the inevitable economic crash.

I expect we will resolve this matter at our next project meeting.

ATB
manfred

Manfred, would it be possible to follow the Super Performance and Noble sales model and sell the cars complete but without an engine. There could then be a few designated shops, like Roush for Super Performance, that installs an appropriate motor. That way, you could get around a bunch of the DMV regulations here in the States.

I'm sure the market in Europe and the UK will provide all the demand you need, but it's an idea. Short of that, we'll all be looking forward to seeing what the Mazzas and Krazeyone pull off. Goodness knows there's enough of us in the USA ready for something!!

K-One - Thanx for the kind words re: the Ostermeier project - we hope to take it forward and continue to improve on the excellent job that Tony started.

Re: the parts "supply" debate - either I'm not making myself clear [ quite possibly! ] or you are missing my point.

We HAVE to manufacture the relevant parts to make us self sufficient and COMPETITIVE on parts costings. We have done some fine business in the past 25+ years selling parts that we make / source - but that's not part of our core business - just a result of it.

For instance - let's take the glass sets. We ALL know how expensive that can be, either from OEM source or from the glass manufacturers - such as Pilkington [ the people who made the glass for Tony ].
Pilkington is a dyed in the wool ENGLISH company - firmly buried in the past. So when we ask for 904 screens on a commercial basis [ 50 + per order] they quote us £850 [stirling] PER screen. So, what do we do? Invest in a set of moulds and order 50, which means that we can sell RETAIL for £275.00 and earn a fair profit. The same company HAS the moulds for the Gullwing - with the same crazy prices. Ergo, we do it all again. The difference this time is that there are a damn site MORE real Gullwings and Roadsters about than there are 904's! Our glass is made to full safety specs and carries all of the relevant marks. As far as other parts are concerned, 95% of ALL accessory parts have jigs and tooling already made and in our possesion. Any essential part NOT currently catered for is being tooled as we "speak".

As to owners of the real thing NOT wanting to save money if they can - my experience shows that not only will they save money where possible, but are the most likely to want to screw you down for a deal! After all, that's how most of them GOT their wealth.
Either way, we have not decided internally what to do yet, but we would be commercially niaive if we didn't consider the commercial opportunity of selling product from moulds and tooling that we have invested in.

As to differences - if anyone has a splash from a REAL Gullwing or Roadster - then our parts will fit! We are already in discussions with a well respected supplier of Repro parts [ to Classic Owners ] to supply them with parts that they do not yet have in their inventory. It is also our understanding that there may well be existeing Gullwing [ Ostermeier ] customers out there who are short of parts to complete their cars. That's another reason why we invite previous owners to contact us to form a register of owners.

Crotty - yes we had already considered supplying our cars through prestige outlets, and exporting less engine / trans, also makes good sense from the point of servicing any warranty issues.

We are geared up to make 10-12 cars [ each model ] in the first full production year, and then we have potential with the current facilities and work force to increase that to 25 per model. Those will be divided upon demand into RHD or LHD, although we expect the greater ratio to be LHD.

Initially we will run with the current spec on the cars - straight 6 Merc engines with manual or auto trans. I am returning to the works in the next couple of weeks to discuss the ongoing development - in the areas of using current [ new ] Mercedes axles, suspensions, engines, trans., etc. the German market will almost certainly demand an option for Blown V8 Merc. motors with manual trans. We are already looking at braking upgrades from our Cobra replica.

We have already received a large number of requests for info. via our website, and one party has even expressed an interest to fly out to Saxony to drive the car and discuss an order.

As a matter of courtesy Jurgen Mohr will respond to the initial enquiries, but after that you'll be redirected to me.

Jaysherman - yes the replica WILL be a high end product and that will be reflected in the quality.

However, given the economic nature of Saxony we don't have to travel to China or other far away places! Don't get me wrong - we're not talking of " a bowl of rice a day" salaries, but traditionally costs / salaries are considerably lower than in the affluent Western and Southern part of Germany. Don't equate that to innefective workforce - Saxony is inundated with mainstream auto factories and expertise. Having carefully researched [ and budgeted ] this project before entering into negotiations - it soon became clear that to have the car manufactured elsewhere would not stack up, especially when you take shipping, time, and duties etc. into consideration. Not to mention the relatively low volume involved. Given that we have a 7000 sq.ft GRP production facilty and a 5000 sq. ft fabrication and toolroom workshop - it would be economically crazy to go elsewhere. Add to that the fact that we have ALL major aspects of general car production covered with our sites in Saxony, Czech Republic and Bavaria and the allure of using China or a.n.other becomes academic.

As previously posted, we are NOT a new company, but one that's been around for many years - all our capital invesments have already been made and paid for themselves - so adding another model[s] to our range is a comparatively painless operation.

Again, thanx for the kind comments about Tony's car - we will indeed carry on the tradition he began.

To put the "Hooper Name" into perspective - although we now legally own the name and logos, it was felt that Mohr has sufficient credibility in his own right not to have to "trade" on a name. You will see the name gradually disappear from the website and literature.

I have spoken to a business colleague of mine who will try to post up some relevant pix for your info., but anyone wanting to see pictures of ACTUAL cars can visit our website www.gullwing.ch.
ATB Manfred

I have read through all of the posts on that particular thread with great interest.

In case anyone should doubt MY credibility - I am the principal of Classic Roadsters Ltd. [ Surrey, England ] and we market a range of Replica Porsches. Initially the 356 Speedster and T6 Roadster, and in July, we will be launching a fantastic 550A Spyder replica as well.

Here are some pictures that Manfred has sent over to me - please enjoy.

BTW - I have personally SEEN and DRIVEN these cars in Saxony - they DO exist!

Cheers,
Martin Craven.

I hope that finally allays any fears that we use mirrors or smoke in our manufacturing process.

AND BEFORE YOU ALL POST IN ABOUT THE DISGUSTING STEERING WHEEL ON THE ROADSTER - IT WAS A REQUIREMENT TO GET THE CAR THROUGH THE RELEVANT TUV [ DMV EQUIVALENT ]. Until we finalise our own period tilt wheels, we will be offering a Nardi / Moto Lita woodrim option.

Incidentally, the Roadster demo car becomes my personal transport when I'm in Saxony and I've put some considerable miles on it in all conditions - including rain and snow. It's no rocket ship when compared to the Cobras we manufacture - but it just oozes C L A S S.

Apart from the several part finished cars in the main showroom, there is a separate pic. of the bare Alloy/Epoxy Hybrid Gullwing.
For those not familiar with the process, it requires molten aluminum to be sprayed into an Epoxy mould, and then backed with an epoxy firming skin. The finished item can be polished just like alloy. Notice the bright mark on the nose of the Gullwing bare body where I scraped it with a craft knife to prove the point to myself. We also polished up a small panel - and it really DOES look like alloy. The sharp eyed amongst you will also spot the nose of our upcoming 904 sat next to a prototype Rover [ nee Buick ] powered sports convertible. This project [ convertible ] is for sale????

Realm are currently considering this process for their Jaguar "C" Type Roadster. We will also no doubt trial this method on our upcoming 550 Spyder.

So for the cynics - there's the proof you might have needed - cars up and running, spares, parts and ongoing builds.

ATB
Manfred

These vehicles are beautifully appointed and a joy to drive and are designed and developed to a 'proper' production car quality and finish

Enjoy!
Kindest regards
Martin Craven
Managing Director
Classic Roadsters Limited
Surrey, England
martinpcraven@BTinternet.com

The website is being currently revamped - I personally was not happy about the Hooper name "dropping" - even though we legally own it. Mohr has an enviable and impeccable history in the specialty car business - and doesn't need to trade off someone else's past.

I hope to have all the changes made and ready to be uploaded by the time I get back to Saxony.

However, I'm back in Saxony in a week's time - so will be on the gullwing.ch address.

I think it's accepted now that we ARE a bone fide manufacturer who has real cars and real tooling.

Some people are asking for specific areas to be photographed - no problem, just let me know and I'll do my best to oblige. Most of my archive photos are "snapshots" and not taken as professional images. However I do have a good camera that is reputed to be "idiot" proof - so I'll have a go with that.

Someone suggested that I took a picture of the car with a current newspaper held up in front! I think that was from Mr. A .Cynic.

I'm off for a long weekend R&R with my family to recharge the batteries for the next trip.
ATB
MAnfred
PS thanx again Martin - I WILL learn one day how to post pix - honest!

Greg

I'm always happy to enter reasonable discussion and debate, and commend you on your own well restrained cynical approach to my posts.

Please bear in mind that my original posting was nothing more than to let people know what happened to the Ostermeier project. Purely from a historical standpoint, I think it's important to have the facts. There is NO intention to hype up our business - as it has been well established for over 25 years - thus your comments about all of the high investment required, believe me - HAS been taken care of. We are not some "fledgeling" company on a wing [ sorry - almost pun ] and a prayer that must stand or fall on the success or otherwise of the Gullwing project. As to "overheads", salaries, and etc. - we currently operate out of 9000 sq.ft. in Saxony [ in a 5 acres complex ] with another 3 locations totalling another 20K sq.ft. There is a workforce at Heyda of 8 - all busy making Turnkey Cobras and Porsche T6 Roadsters - a 550 Spyder and 904 are currently being developed [ available this Fall ]. We also have several "real" cars in for restoration - including a 904. We can "grow" our facility quite simply to increase our annual throughput of cars.

Capital investment is NOT a problem for us.

Also, I think I might not have made myself clear - the 13 or so part cars [ in various stages of completion ] are simply what was inherited with the project. Naturally we also have the neccessary moulds and jigs/tooling to remanufacture all of the relevant parts. These cars WILL be completed to customer order as a continuation of the old "Ostermeier" spec'd cars.

We have currently taken two of those cars to be used as development mules for the new V8 powerplant and the very latest Mercedes OEM axles and suspension.These will be the "Phase 2" products - using bang up to date mechanicals.

Yes, current power plant is either E300 or E320 with 5 spd. manual or 4 speed auto trannies. No rocket ships for sure when compared with a healthy Chevy lump - but "adequate".

However, we know from our Cobra and Porsche experiences, that our German customers demand all the bells and whistles - air-con, etc., so we are currently installing the very latest Merc. V8 power.

Yes, it's a fine line between "spirit of the original" and practicality / customer demand. In this case - the Customer is King and if they want a V8 - then that's what they'll get! It will be a Merc however! There will ALWAYS be the option of 6 /8 cylinder power.
Also, you'd be surprised at just how much more affordable OEM Mercedes parts [ new of course ] are here in Germany than the US!

There is obviously a demand for such a power unit [ Quint cars ], and at the end of the day the car's not REAL anyway - so why get precious about whether the engine has 6 or 8 cylinders.

Additionally - your costings are, I am quite sure valid for mainland USA - but totally out of the window here in the old Eastern part of Germany. We are less than 100 kms. from Poland and Czech - each with their own economic advantages.

I guess you've seen the incredible Kirkham ALUMINUM Cobra bodies made in a former MiG works? SUPERB quality and at a price that would make an English panel beater weep. You are talking of 75% LESS than the cost of an equivalent UK produced alloy body.

It is highly UNLIKELY that we will contemplate selling the cars as Kits - possible rolling body/chassis -possibly.

I am having a key meeting in two weeks' time to discuss the on sale of component parts. Should any positive decision be made we will of course invite discussion from potential agents / distributors.

So, to conclude - we are a company that has been in business [ successful] for 25 years+, we are self funding and own our facilities ouright [ not rented ]- we have a well established workforce who specialise in the building of these type of cars.

I have not mastered the black art of posting photos to the forum, but I am quite happy to send you photos direct to your personal e-mail address.

ATB
Manfred

Krazyone, its always exciting to see your parts. Your hinges have turned my mediocre doors into something first rate. I hope no one will accuse me of blasphemy but I am installing a pair of linear actuators and a remote door opener. So I will marry the old and the new.

We live in exciting times!

That's GREAT because in this industry there's room for everyone. I'm sure [ in fact I KNOW ] that somewhere, someone is whittling away using all real parts on a GRP shell to make the "Perfect" replica - wrong - it's still GRP!
Then more generally, there's others in the industry that will take a shape and resize it to fit something that already exists - eg - the McBurnie Daytonas or any one of hundreds of Beetle kits. Each one will put their all into the project - misguided in our view or not - that's the point , it is ONLY our view and doesn't matter a hoot to the guys building the project. It does however have to be reasonably saleable if there is to be any commercial return.

Many years ago a guy came to me with an XK120 Roadster kit that he had bought in the USA. It had been widened 4" to sit on a Pinto [ I think ] chassis frame, or use Pinto parts. To my eyes - and any other English enthusiast it looked horrendous. So I took the 4" back out and designed a chassis taking all XK running gear - including of course - the classic 6 cylinder engine. Was I right, was the originator who had a Pinto sat in his workshop right? In the end it didn't matter - there were customers aplenty for each style.

IMHO an interchange of ideas and even parts is healthy and can lead to only one thing - putting more of "our" type of cars on the road for folks to enjoy.

We are currently undertaking a restoration of a real 904 with full factory and competition history. Naturally I will not divulge the owner's name or the costs involved - but let's say that I couldn't even afford [ well I could, but couldn't justify it to my Wife! ] the
cost of the restoration, never mind the original value of the car - but I CAN afford [ and justify! ] one of our own replicas. The body is as faithful a "replica" [ in true dictionary sense ] as you can get, as it was taken out of the original Heinkel moulds. As a side point, we also have the ORIGINAL clay model 904 [ 24" long ] moulds, and have produced a handful of GRP models for that ultimate office / den display.

Sure, we will not recreate the antiquated 904 chassis and suspension - why should we throw away 20+ years of development and evolution to make a 60's style product? We are simply redesigning our spaceframe 550 Spyder chassis / suspension combo, for what we consider will be the best of both World's - the timeless beauty of the 904 with modern design theory, brakes, suspension and fittings. Again, as the Merc - the power plant will be 4/6 cylinder air cooled Porsche, but one customer has already asked for a Boxster unit to be installed. Is that a no no to put a water cooled engine in such a classic - or just good sense?

I received an invite to Carlisle from our good friends at www.speedstershop.com but regrettably the pressure of work this year rules that out, but our UK distributor and collaborator Classic Roadsters Ltd. has supplied some poster goodies for prizegiving.
So maybe next year I'll get to meet up with you guys, hopefully driving into the showground with your own Gullwings - I'll drink to that.

ATB
Manfred

BTW - kitcarguy - can I post photos to you easier than to the forum? If not I'll continue to ask my good friend Martin Craven to post for me.

On that note I am considering what to do with the rear roof vent. I was considering a 4 inch deep vent with LEDS as a third brake light and probably a rear mount videa for backing up. For now getting the car running is my priority but brainstorming potential improvements is fun too.

Yes I'd love to share a bottle or two with you [ and the other guys ]at Carlisle next year [ Work permitting! ]- however, I don't think it will be viable to freight one of our cars over just for a personal selfish whim. So I guess I'll have to blag a "shotgun" ride with you guys!

HOWEVER, we are putting out the idea of an "Open House" weekend at our auto complex in Heyda later this year, and throwing out an open invitation to owners of relevant cars [ of ANY make and origin ].
Pig Roast, beer fest, you know the kind of thing. It won't be structured in the way of "concours", "best of show", "best original wurzlegrommet valve that nobody can see" - no it will be a laid back meeting of minds and ideas. We are discussing with the farmer who owns the land next to our complex for camp site and parking facilities.

It will also be an opportunity for folks to come along and see our various products, check out the facilities and generally to have a chilled out weekend - the emphasis being on having a good time.

Now then - a big "Thank You" Gullwing - your idea about using the rear vents to house a high level brake light are inspired!

Our vents are functional, but I could see that we could easilly install a row of LED stop lamps around the inside periphery of the apperture. They would remain out of view until operated and so not spoil the period look. Would also solve a TUV requirement NEATLY - AND look real cool.

Due accreditation offered should we decide to "borrow" your idea!!!!!

Ref: the spares situation YOU guys are discussing - if there is anything I can do to check out OEM prices [ or repro equivalent ], just give me a holler and I'll check out currently available sources here in Germany. That is irrespective of what decision we come to over our own company generated spares.

Looks like things are really beginning to cook on this forum, and I for one am encouraged about the current interchange of ideas - see, we CAN all get along together!

ATB

Manfred

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