| Author |
 Topic  |
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mepoland
USA
40 Posts |
 Posted - June 03 2003 : 06:35:30 AM
I'm in high school and I've never built a kit car before. I don't know much about cars, but I'd like to learn more and I've always wanted to build a kit car. I'm looking for the simplest and most straight-forward kit out there, and I need something cheap, too. I'd like to get an idea of how difficult it really is to build one, where I can find a good beginner kit, and weather I'll have to pay more for the tools to build it than the kit itself. I'd also like to know weather I'd be able to sell the car, once i was finished, for more than I bought it and the engine for. Anyone with advice or information, please post it. What did you do with your first car? |
jspbtown
95 Posts |
Posted - June 03 2003 : 3:34:28 PM
Go for a VW based dunebuggy. Everything to fix them is cheap. Parts are plentful, and you can do alot with a gallon of bondo and some fiberglass matt. Everything can be adapted to them, and the systems are as easy as you can get. EBAY usually has several in all diffent stages of dis-repair. Thats where I started out. In the past few years I have worked on two dunebuggies, a Sterling, a Bradley GTII, a Manta Mirage, and my current project, a Kelmark. Pictures can be seen in the "Projects" section. Good luck in getting started!
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mepoland
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - June 07 2003 : 2:38:19 PM
I've been looking at a real basic kit sold by total performance inc. (www.tperformance.com) for a t-bucket. It would cost about 11,000 for everything except the rear wheels and an engine, and the site claims that it would be very easy to construct; no welding, and it comes with a detailed manual. I thought it looked good for me because I have no experience and I could learn a lot about simple construction and how the thing works, from a basic kit like that. After I did that, I could try a more difficult (and probably cheaper and less complete) kit. 11000 seems like an awful lot though, and I need to get back a good portion of whatever I pay for a kit by selling it when I'm done. Would a t-bucket without many bells and whistles sell for much at all? |
meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 07 2003 : 4:59:02 PM
quote:
I've been looking at a real basic kit sold by total performance inc. (www.tperformance.com) for a t-bucket. It would cost about 11,000 for everything except the rear wheels and an engine, and the site claims that it would be very easy to construct; no welding, and it comes with a detailed manual. I thought it looked good for me because I have no experience and I could learn a lot about simple construction and how the thing works, from a basic kit like that. After I did that, I could try a more difficult (and probably cheaper and less complete) kit. 11000 seems like an awful lot though, and I need to get back a good portion of whatever I pay for a kit by selling it when I'm done. Would a t-bucket without many bells and whistles sell for much at all?
T-Buckets are not what you'd call a 'money maker.' They're easy to build, and Total Performance or Cal Custom is where I'd go to get a T-Bucket (they're also priced about the same; one's back east, one's on the west coast). If you're looking to make any money, or get back your investment, you'd probably do well to look elsewhere, though. T-Buckets are not a high-demand item, and you'll have to sit with it for awhile before you sell it. I've seen them go for as little as $6,500 used. If you're not putting all the bells and whistles on the car (there really aren't too many you can put on a 'bucket), then you're not going to get a higher price for the car. Also, the car is made to be a fair-weather ONLY car. What I would recommend would be to get something a bit more within a low budget, and something that there's a high demand for when you're done. I would recommend a Factory Five Racing Cobra replica. It's about in the same price range, but you'll also need a 1987-1993 Mustang 5.0 LX or GT to use as a donor. You'll be into the car for $14K (no bells, no whistles, lots of sweat equity) by the time you're done, and you'll have a car that's worth between $16K and $22K when you're done with it. Hope that helps. Your pal,
Meat.
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mantacars
127 Posts |
Posted - June 08 2003 : 7:57:44 PM
All info. to date valuable, but let me pose perhaps the first question which you must consider. Do you have a facility and the tools that will be required to build even the easier kits?
Ideally, you should have an empty two car garage in which to work.
One side for kit parts and donor parts/car - the other side for assembly of the kit. Also, you will need a complete set of basic tools (wrenches and sockets) S.A.E. and/or metric dependent upon kit/donor that you choose.
Good Luck,
Mike
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jspbtown
95 Posts |
Posted - June 09 2003 : 2:09:11 PM
I think we overlooking some facts here.
1. High school student: To me that means "no money". While the FFR kits are great, $15k is a lot of money, and this could be a VERY expensive lesson should he not have the technical skills, or financial backing to finish the project. Plus, the prices quoted for a completed kit are reasonable for a well constructed kit. Being a first timer I would be hesitant to suggest such a large investment.
2. Has never built a car before: Again, both the FFR kits, and the Total Performance packages are well concieved, and come with alot of materials and technical support, however, I would not consider them "easy" to construct. Again, $15k is alot of money to "learn" the construction of an automobile, especially for a high schooler.
Look back on my prior post. Re-consider a Bradley or Dunebuggy. You can let your imagination go wild, experiment with fiberglass, learn to paint, build an interior, do engine mods, etc, etc, for a very little bit of money. Buy one real cheap, experiment, do a good job, and HOPEFULLY sell it for more than you put into it. Then take that money for a FFR.
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 09 2003 : 6:26:47 PM
quote:
jspbtown wrote:
I think we overlooking some facts here.
1. High school student: To me that means "no money". While the FFR kits are great, $15k is a lot of money, and this could be a VERY expensive lesson should he not have the technical skills, or financial backing to finish the project. Plus, the prices quoted for a completed kit are reasonable for a well constructed kit. Being a first timer I would be hesitant to suggest such a large investment.
2. Has never built a car before: Again, both the FFR kits, and the Total Performance packages are well concieved, and come with alot of materials and technical support, however, I would not consider them "easy" to construct. Again, $15k is alot of money to "learn" the construction of an automobile, especially for a high schooler.
Look back on my prior post. Re-consider a Bradley or Dunebuggy. You can let your imagination go wild, experiment with fiberglass, learn to paint, build an interior, do engine mods, etc, etc, for a very little bit of money. Buy one real cheap, experiment, do a good job, and HOPEFULLY sell it for more than you put into it. Then take that money for a FFR.
I can only hope that you're kidding with that post. 1. High school student: he already is looking at a budget of $11K, which, coincidentally enough it pretty close to the price of the FFR kit. The FFR isn't great; it's easy. That's a totally different thing. What makes the FFR a kit that's easy to assemble is that it uses a single donor car. You will not have to source anything from more than one place. You will not have to use an inferior chassis that could be rust-riddled. You will not have to do any welding. An FFR is an excellent kit for a first timer. 2. Has never built a car before. The FFR as well as the Total Performance product are ridiculously easy to build. They have technical support available from a number of different sources. They are easy to build. Don't in any way consider an SEP - such as the Bradley GT or even the GTII - as a your first car there, mepoland. That's just bad advice. Bad, bad, bad. The Bradley has no support, no resale, and no company behind it. It's an obsolete kit, based on a harder and harder to find rust-free VW chassis. Further, you'll be buying the kit from "some guy" who's kept this kit in his garage or on the side of his house for years. "complete" kit? don't make me LAUGH! You'll be lucky if you get enough parts to even come close to getting the car kind-of done. Spending money on a half-baked 'experiment' is just loopy. Further, mepoland, judging from your posts, you're not looking to do any welding. Here's something to think about. If you do something as idiotic as getting a used Bradley kit, you're still going to have to find a VW. Once you get that, you'll probably have to weld in new floors, new battery mounts, new this, or new that. From your post, it appears that you're not looking for a kit that requires welding. Keep in mind, also, that most dune buggies require a shortened chassis - which means that not only do you have to cut a VW chassis apart, you're also going to have to re-weld it together. Or, you could have a professional do it ... which is going to cost some coin. In the end, the kit you pick needs to be based on some serious inner exploration (how confident are you in your abilities? If you can do brakes, change oil, do other mechanical stuff to your own car you're probably pretty close to being able to build a TP or FFR), as well as some investigation. I would recommend - before you order any kit - that you call up the manufacturer and talk to them. Check out their websites. Look at the finished cars. Sit in the finished cars. Go for a ride in the finished cars. Make sure you fit. Make sure you like what you're looking at. And - most importantly - buy the assembly manual and read it. Read it. Read it. Read it. If you do not understand the build manual, then you might not want to buy the kit. If you can't talk to the factory, then you shouldn't buy the car. I'm here to help you. Let me know where you're living, and I'll see if I can find someone in your area who has a kit or a car that you can check out. Hope that helps! Your pal,
Meat.
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jspbtown
95 Posts |
Posted - June 09 2003 : 8:33:29 PM
Meat, with all the respect you are due, I think maybe you should take a little more time reading and contemplating who is writing the messages you are responding to. The post said "11000 seems like an awful lot though". Maybe in Meat-land the average 15/16year old has $11,000 laying around to buy just the kit. Of course then they would head into the back yard, climb the money tree to pay for the motor, the wheels, the paint, etc. Of course if he wants the options that set the car apart (chrome,built motor, etc) then he just climbs right back up the tree.
Let's now look at the wisdom of your arguement against 1st the Dunebuggy, and then the older kit cars:
1. DUNEBUGGY: All this welding?? Where? Worst case scenario you need new floors put in. If you need more, then walk away..there are plenty of Buggies in the sea. I got a quote for $125 for a welder to come to my house to weld them in for me. That, plus the $120 for the new pans, gets us to about $250...for that you can get an upgraded FFR steering column. And lets not forget the "only need a single donor car" needed for the FFR...I can just see this nice young man climbing that money tree again. If your Dunebuggy has an engine that is seized it can be rebuilt or a used one bought for dirt cheap. My freshly rebuilt (1000 miles) motor that I am putting in my Kelmark cost me $300. Hey, that might be a chrome roll bar for the FFR! Lets talk paint...my yellow buggy (pictures in the forums section) cost me $200 to paint in my back yard, and that included the paint gun! Perfect? No, but that is the kind of car you learn on...not a $20,000 kit. Interior? $100 for a set of nice Fiero seats, and another $125 for repairs. Carpet set for a VW is anywhere from $35 and up. So mepoland go look at the yellow dunebuggy in the projects section. Total cost including car, repairs, and ALL the new tools I needed was just over $3000.00. It sat on my front yard for 1 day before I was given $4500.00 cash for it. Next...
2. OLDER KIT CAR: They are cheap and plentiful. I almost bought a very nice Aztec 7 last week. It went for $1350 on EBAY. It certainly needed some work, probably about $2000-$3000 but I KNOW I could have gotten $5000 for it. The Kelmark I am restoring now will have around $4500 total into it, primarily because I added a few extra features. I will make my money back there as well. The fact that most of these kits are indeed half done (half hacked??), but that is why they are cheap. Look at my Kelmark, I totally stripped it down. Sometimes you can learn alot from taking something apart AND putting it together. It will have a new interior, new wiring, new brakes, etc. Anything you want to learn on in these cars can be carried forward, and let me assure you that a mistake on a $500 used kit will be a much better lesson then on a $15k kit.Regarding the concerned of the kit being "obsolete"..yeah..so what! Be creative. Try something new. Anyone can open a box and pull out a new shiney part. When my Sterling (also in the projects section) needed a passender side map pocket, I took the one I had, laid seran wrap over it, then fiberglass, and made a new one! Properly painted (with a spray can), and no one ever could tell it was fabricated. Total cost? About 5 bucks..lets see...maybe a valve stem for the real nice wheels you will need on a FFR to make your money back. be smart when you look for used kits, some things are VERY difficult to find. My Manta Mirage needed a windshieeld that I looked for about a year for befiore I found one. The kit was 20 years old but even custom (made ONLY for the Mirage) windshields were still available. If you can't locate it, then build it! You don't need fancy tools, just a desire and some creativity. Lastly, the silliness about VW frames being scarce..come on! I live in the rust belt of the country and of all the VW based cars I have built none were rusted beyond needing floor pan replacement. In fact, when I bought the Sterling in CT I was given a rust free second pan with tranny. If I can find them in New England they can't be too hard to find.
So mepoland, I am not saying you are going to get rich buying, repairing, and selling VW based kits. What you will do, if you keep a tight budget and try things on your own, is to have a hobby that will fund itself, and will impress your friends. So, if you live where Meat does, and you have that money tree in the back yard, climb right up and grab enough for a FFR for your first car. At 16 you will be the coolest kid on the block. God knows I didn't have a spare $20 grand laying around when I was your age.
Inclosing, if you are the "average" high schooler, and it comes down to waiting until you save $20 grand or getting your hands dirty NOW, then go with my suggestion. If you can wait for perfection, then do so.
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 09 2003 : 9:41:05 PM
quote:
jspbtown wrote:
Meat, with all the respect you are due, I think maybe you should take a little more time reading and contemplating who is writing the messages you are responding to. The post said "11000 seems like an awful lot though". Maybe in Meat-land the average 15/16year old has $11,000 laying around to buy just the kit. Of course then they would head into the back yard, climb the money tree to pay for the motor, the wheels, the paint, etc. Of course if he wants the options that set the car apart (chrome,built motor, etc) then he just climbs right back up the tree.
Let's now look at the wisdom of your arguement against 1st the Dunebuggy, and then the older kit cars:
1. DUNEBUGGY: All this welding?? Where? Worst case scenario you need new floors put in. If you need more, then walk away..there are plenty of Buggies in the sea. I got a quote for $125 for a welder to come to my house to weld them in for me. That, plus the $120 for the new pans, gets us to about $250...for that you can get an upgraded FFR steering column. And lets not forget the "only need a single donor car" needed for the FFR...I can just see this nice young man climbing that money tree again. If your Dunebuggy has an engine that is seized it can be rebuilt or a used one bought for dirt cheap. My freshly rebuilt (1000 miles) motor that I am putting in my Kelmark cost me $300. Hey, that might be a chrome roll bar for the FFR! Lets talk paint...my yellow buggy (pictures in the forums section) cost me $200 to paint in my back yard, and that included the paint gun! Perfect? No, but that is the kind of car you learn on...not a $20,000 kit. Interior? $100 for a set of nice Fiero seats, and another $125 for repairs. Carpet set for a VW is anywhere from $35 and up. So mepoland go look at the yellow dunebuggy in the projects section. Total cost including car, repairs, and ALL the new tools I needed was just over $3000.00. It sat on my front yard for 1 day before I was given $4500.00 cash for it. Next...
2. OLDER KIT CAR: They are cheap and plentiful. I almost bought a very nice Aztec 7 last week. It went for $1350 on EBAY. It certainly needed some work, probably about $2000-$3000 but I KNOW I could have gotten $5000 for it. The Kelmark I am restoring now will have around $4500 total into it, primarily because I added a few extra features. I will make my money back there as well. The fact that most of these kits are indeed half done (half hacked??), but that is why they are cheap. Look at my Kelmark, I totally stripped it down. Sometimes you can learn alot from taking something apart AND putting it together. It will have a new interior, new wiring, new brakes, etc. Anything you want to learn on in these cars can be carried forward, and let me assure you that a mistake on a $500 used kit will be a much better lesson then on a $15k kit.Regarding the concerned of the kit being "obsolete"..yeah..so what! Be creative. Try something new. Anyone can open a box and pull out a new shiney part. When my Sterling (also in the projects section) needed a passender side map pocket, I took the one I had, laid seran wrap over it, then fiberglass, and made a new one! Properly painted (with a spray can), and no one ever could tell it was fabricated. Total cost? About 5 bucks..lets see...maybe a valve stem for the real nice wheels you will need on a FFR to make your money back. be smart when you look for used kits, some things are VERY difficult to find. My Manta Mirage needed a windshieeld that I looked for about a year for befiore I found one. The kit was 20 years old but even custom (made ONLY for the Mirage) windshields were still available. If you can't locate it, then build it! You don't need fancy tools, just a desire and some creativity. Lastly, the silliness about VW frames being scarce..come on! I live in the rust belt of the country and of all the VW based cars I have built none were rusted beyond needing floor pan replacement. In fact, when I bought the Sterling in CT I was given a rust free second pan with tranny. If I can find them in New England they can't be too hard to find.
So mepoland, I am not saying you are going to get rich buying, repairing, and selling VW based kits. What you will do, if you keep a tight budget and try things on your own, is to have a hobby that will fund itself, and will impress your friends. So, if you live where Meat does, and you have that money tree in the back yard, climb right up and grab enough for a FFR for your first car. At 16 you will be the coolest kid on the block. God knows I didn't have a spare $20 grand laying around when I was your age.
Inclosing, if you are the "average" high schooler, and it comes down to waiting until you save $20 grand or getting your hands dirty NOW, then go with my suggestion. If you can wait for perfection, then do so.
Well, to you I recommend a remedial reading and comprehension class, because you either (a) are taking things out of context to fit a point you want to make, or (b) you really can't read, or (c) you were thinking I'd just let that one slide by. I'm not going to interpret the paragraph for you, but you're wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Boy, are you wrong. I stand by what I said, and I'll go ahead and point out your failings in your response - beside the obvious idiocy of intentional misinterpretation in the hopes of muddying the waters and confusing the issue. First off, we're talking about a high school kid who has never built a kit. Chances are, he hasn't had much exposure to VW bugs, either. Probably doesn't know where to look for damage to the chassis. He's a neophyte (no offense, mepoland!). He doesn't know what to look for. Therefore, most of your arguments are already moot. Your arguments have no wisdom. Your arguments ... well, aren't. You're assuming facts not in evidence, you're not looking at the situation from the proper perspective (here's a hint: it's not your perspective), and you're angry at ME, so you're not thinking rationally. You're acting like a dumbass. Back the self-righteous truck up there, bucko, and try to give some useful advice next time. 1. Dunebuggy. All this welding. Worse case? Worse case the chassis is damaged beyond repair. The car has been front hit and the damage hidden under bondo and cheap paint. Worse case? You buy a car you cannot use. That's a worse case. So, you're wrong in your worse case. Further, let's talk about your pricing. No, better yet, let's not. See, it doesn't matter what YOU pay for a crappy welder or some floorpans, because you're not the one who's buying the unusable car. Also, Mr. KnowItAll, FFR doesn't make an upgraded steering column. Additionally, if the engine is seized, then - in addition to the chassis being unusable, you've now got a unusable engine. And if the engine is seized, then the tranny is probably not far behind. So you're - in essence - telling someone with no car experience to pretty much take a small pile of money and burn it and come away with nothing. Sigh...there's a reason some people should just not give advice. You're a shining example of just such a person so far. You seem to want to talk about your imagined good fortune, rather than offer up some advice. Well, I could do that too. In fact I bought a 1992 Mazda Miata for $600 and all it needed was a switch to make it run...But that doesn't mean that you or even mepoland would be able to get that same deal. Once-in-a-lifetime is just that. This isn't about you, it's about helping a member make a good choice based on some information that he provided...not about how you scored and then polluted the environment by blowing a hole in the ozone with illegal painting. And, while we're on the subject of dune buggies, I wasn't talking about welding up the floors, I was talking about shortening the chassis. It doesn't happen by magic; someone has to cut the car in half and then weld it together. Hiring some wack-job with a welding torch isn't the recommended way to do that...contrary to what you seem to want to believe. Sure, there are long wheelbase dune buggies...but they are few and far between. 2. Older Kit Car: There's a reason the car was never completed. Think about that. It's important. And every argument I made (no company, no customer service, no help) you didn't in any way address. And what is the "then build it!" OMFG, you're offering some of the stupidest advice I've ever seen posted anywhere. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Your experience is ... well, duh, your experience. We're not talking about you...I mean, you are talking about you, but I'm talking about helping someone with minimal experience get a car finished. Older kit? Yep. They're crap. They're impossible to finish. You can't find parts, and - just like the guy getting rid of the car - you'll lose interest and sell the car. That's where older kits come from, D.A. So, mepoland, jspbtown's post is an excellent example of why you shouldn't listen to just one person's advice. jspbtown only posted to stroke his ego, not to help you. And he will never help you, ever. He will, on the other hand, jump at any chance to tell you what a great deal he got doing his stuff. Do not - in any way - listen to someone who is so caught up in themselves; they're not there to give you any direction. If you follow his advice, you'll end up with a pile of crap that will only take up space until you eventually sell at a loss after losing all interest in it. jspbtown offered bad advice, and didn't in any way back it up. What he said was wrong. That's not the right way to go about getting involved in the kit car hobby. I can say that with experience; my first kit was a Laser 917 replica that I picked up from a neighbor who lost interest. I've also built a Sebring MX from a kit that I picked up from a divorce proceeding. I built a TriMagnum from an article. I got a Porsche Speedster replica kit fourth-hand. I just got rid of an FFR that was a burned out wreck and had to be rebuilt from the ground up. The majority of the kit cars that I've had and built have all been at least second hand SEPs, so I know what I'm talking about. The ONLY reason I finished the cars is because I had experience, an air compressor, a great set of tools and a neighbor who was a certified mechanic and a ton of patience. The right way to get involved in the kit car industry is to buy a kit from a reputable manufacturer that is still in business. I'll further offer you some additional advice, mepoland. You can also get a rebody that is based on a modern car; like a Fiero, for example. It will be significantly less expensive than a full on replica like the TP or the FFR. If money is an issue, or space is a concern, that may be a better way to 'get your feet wet.' If you need any help, mepoland, I'll do my best to help you out and point you to people who know what they're talking about. Knowledge is power. Your pal,
Meat.
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dave114
195 Posts |
Posted - June 09 2003 : 10:58:22 PM
OK the **** has hit the fan and it's spraying in all directions. First of all mepoland do you have a budget? If so what is it?? You need to have a budget and you need to stick to it, like white in rice!! What kind of advice I can give you, all depends on what your budget is. Another good question, is what subjects do you do at school, ie do you do any tech trade subjects (metalwork, mechanics, etc) seeing as you say you don't know much about cars I suppose not. Next, being a first time builder, you need something easy, no welding, cutting just a sort of "plug and play" kit. Something like an unstretched fiero kit, eg 355 coupe, euroworks mirage or something to that effect. Also go and talk to your mechanics or tech trade teacher at your school and let him/her (got to be politically correct) know what you are doing as they could help. I can't tell you what kit specifically to buy, only you can know that, but I can point you in the right direction. Make sure you do your research and know your limits. Do a basic mechanics course just so you have some knowledge of what your doing, and if you don't know ask. "Measure twice, cut once". Talk to the manufacturer, talk to other people who have built the same kit. There is no magic kit out there that will go together like Lego, so you just have to do lots of research and just know your limits.Hope this helps Your mate in OZ Dave BTW: One of the highschools here, built a show quality 355 coupe from scratch, including the spaceframe, as there year class project. So it is possible to do!! Just some food for thought!!
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jspbtown
95 Posts |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 08:08:55 AM
Meat, even a dog is smart enough to pull away when he gets hit on the nose enough. You have been smacked in this forum, and multiple others, more times than I think anyone, yet you still keep coming back with Andy Rooney commentary. I can't decide if you are just ignorant or plain stupid. So all I will say, and therefore leaving you with your final comments (which I know your ego needs), is get a life, get a job, and get educated.
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 11:58:07 AM
quote:
jspbtown wrote:
Meat, even a dog is smart enough to pull away when he gets hit on the nose enough. You have been smacked in this forum, and multiple others, more times than I think anyone, yet you still keep coming back with Andy Rooney commentary. I can't decide if you are just ignorant or plain stupid. So all I will say, and therefore leaving you with your final comments (which I know your ego needs), is get a life, get a job, and get educated.
Ah yes ... "get a life" ... the death knell of the stupid. Lose an argument? Then just say "get a life." Can't make a convincing case? Just say "get a life." Dumb as a stump? Just say "get a life." I haven't been smacked on any forum. Why? Because - unlike you - I know what I'm talking about. I help people. I work for the good of the industry. You don't. I can understand why you can't decide anything...it's because you don't do the research. You don't understand the topic. You just plain can't do anything that doesn't involve you stroking you ineffectual ego. If people don't care about you, your ego, your laughable stories, then I guess you'll just tell them to get a life. Well...goody goody for you. It's people like me that make it easier for others to tolerate people like you, D.A. Your pal,
Meat.
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kitkar
126 Posts |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 12:30:20 PM
quote:
I'm in high school and I've never built a kit car before. I don't know much about cars, but I'd like to learn more and I've always wanted to build a kit car. I'm looking for the simplest and most straight-forward kit out there, and I need something cheap, too. I'd like to get an idea of how difficult it really is to build one, where I can find a good beginner kit, and weather I'll have to pay more for the tools to build it than the kit itself. I'd also like to know weather I'd be able to sell the car, once i was finished, for more than I bought it and the engine for. Anyone with advice or information, please post it. What did you do with your first car?
I'd have to say if you can afford an FFR then by all means go for it. But based on your post I'm assuming that is out of the question and you have a budget in the $3000 - $4000 range. For that I think a buggy or older kit would be great. A great way to learn about kits on a budget is get an older kit that needs restoration. I'm doing that with a Laser 917. Granted most companies aren't around anymore but there is plenty of support (mostly good) from the various forums. Rick Lord
http://www.kingdomcustoms.com |
Netro RS4 3
42 Posts |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 1:04:02 PM
Meat, jspbtownSTOP IT WILL YA!! The boy asked for help not a fight! So you are not making it any easy on him.mepoland: first, you must go for the nearest bookstore and buy some books that talk about making and managing budgets. After you plan and know how much exactly you can pay search for the best kit depending on your budget. In the same time, try to read more about car parts. I don’t really know what they teach you at high school and I don’t know your abilities either. So if I suppose that you don’t know any thing at all, I will suggest that you go for howstuffworks.com to learn the basics of cars. If you are higher than that level you can read about car’s chassis, engine and electricity. Remember that you must at least know the basics of car design to start building your kit. If you find some mistakes in my paragraph please forgive me cause am not that good English speaker.
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Ceririps
Canada
57 Posts |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 12:03:40 AM
MEAT...Is there any topic on here that you dont have a half assed opinion about. Don't you have anything better to do than reply to every comment that is made on this website ? You sure have alot to say for someone that talks out of their ass
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 08:49:50 AM
quote:
Ceririps wrote
MEAT...Is there any topic on here that you dont have a half assed opinion about. Don't you have anything better to do than reply to every comment that is made on this website ? You sure have alot to say for someone that talks out of their ass
Wow. One post, eh? Gee, what a suprise that this appears here...right on schedule. "Gosh," Meat wrote, using the sarcastic keys on his keyboard. "I wonder who this new guy could be?" Stupid, stupid, stupid...you really ought to get a better schtick; the one you're using is old and worn out. Your pal,
Meat.
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mepoland
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 3:56:46 PM
Wow.
Okay, first of all thanks for all the advice. Second, I'm going to have to ask you to settle down, ladies. If it weren't for the little bits of information that are actually useful to me hidden in between all the crap that's been posted in some of these responses, I wouldn't bother to read them. Its great that you have the time to help me out a little, but I think you guys could definately benefit from chilling out a little.
Yeah I'm in high school, but I'm not so stupid that I'm going to buy myself a kit or get started on something I might not be able to complete. I intend to do plenty of research and look into every possible option that I have for my first car. I expect to lose some money, and because of the fact that I'm highly inexperienced, I am probably going to end up getting whatever gives me the best chances of having enough money to try another kit in the future; weather the kit happens to be something I want desperately or something I don't especially like the looks of.
In respects to my budget, I have a (relatively to my age) very high limit. My parents support me and are willing to loan me up to about 16,000. This is actually coming from an inheritence I unexpectedly recieved, so they aren't risking much. They expect me to make smart decisions, and I absolutely intend to. After all, I'll have to pay them back for every cent at some point; that money could have gone to college. I don't really expect to make money on this hobby no matter how long I persue it, and I pretty much know for a fact that I'm going to lose money on my first attempt. However, I'm not going to throw cash away, and I think it's fair to consider early losses an "investment;" no matter what I choose to do for my first kit, it will probably teach me a huge amount about what to do and what not to. Hopefully that will pay me back in later projects. Besides, if it doesn't theres always those cash trees in the back yard.
Of course, this is all assuming that I buy a kit. I'm just about dead set on getting started with this, but if I don't think the enjoyment I'll get out of it is worth my time and the debt I'll have piled up with my parents, I'll back off while I still eat off a plate.
Now that that's cleared up, about the cars. At first I was looking at a Total Performance car, but I think its been established that that wouldn't be the best investment (thanks meat). Considering I live 5 minutes from Boston, this isn't exactly the ideal climate for a car like that. The main thing that attracted to me about TP was how easy and complete they made their products seem, but of course I could only have afforded the most basic setups for it, and the more I spend, the more of a risk I'm taking.
I don't know about a dunebuggy, it seems like an interesting and fun project but I'm not so sure about trying anything involving fabrication; that could get complicated. It would be incredible to build something like what they make at FFR, but two things concern me: the price, which could easily rise considerably during construction because of tools I didn't know I'd need and other stuff, and secondly the fact that I'd need to find a specific Mustang. I don't know if I'd be able to find one, at least one cheap enough, and according to the FFR site and brocure, there are a number of specific parts, other than the chassis, that would need to be included with the Mustang to be included in the second car. I'm willing to do a lot of research on potential donors, but I'm not one to judge what kind of shape these parts are actually in. I don't want to spend lots of money on a key part(s) like the donor and only find out it's worthless as I turn the ignition for the first time and something busts through the hood and into my lap.
As far as my garage and tools are concerned, mantacars, I'm decently equipped. My dad is a tool guy (more so than the average male, of course), and we've got a huge abundance of power- and other tools, but they aren't specifically aimed at building cars, so I don't know exactly how much I'd have to spend on tools. What is the average cost of buying/renting major tools for the first time? Could I rent items like an engine hoist, which I would only use for a few days, or would I have to buy them?
My dad knows quite a bit about cars, and used to buy old ones and fix them up, replace engines, make little adjustments like that and sell them to make money for college. He can help me out to a certain extent, but choosing a good kit car is completely different from fixing up an old car. He also doesn't have time to get heavily involved; if he did, he would probably be the one trying to build a kit car. I also know a guy, through my mom, who lives in St. Louis and spends all his time building hot rods from used parts. He should be able to answer a lot of technical questions, which will make the whole process a lot easier.
I don't have loads of cash, I didn't know **** about cars until a year ago when I began to realize how incredibly cool they were, and I'm sure there are lots of tools I'll need to get before I can even think about building anything. I'm a smart kid though, and I'm willing to put lot of time into this. What else does a high schooler in the suburbs have to do after school, on the weekends, during summer... I'd rather be doing this than getting paid for wasting my time behind the counter at the drug store or whatever. Or smoking pot. So help the poor kid out and tell me about your experiences with kits, give me some advice, tell me what dumb mistakes you regret making on your first projects, where you can find good deals.
Thanks a lot for the advice you've given me so far. I don't really get the concept, but if those of you who feel like having some sort of online text-battle could set up your own topic and bi*** and moan to each other about how stupid each other are, that would be great. I'll take anything you post here to heart, and I plan to find some good old-fasioned text (as in books) to help me out. My dad is always talking about howstuffworks.com; I'll check it out but I think I'm a little beyond that; I've got the basic mechanics of the car down reasonably well.
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 8:17:10 PM
Well, if you're that close to Boston, you really need to consider the FFR; they're located in Wareham, MA. Call them up and set up a time to go by their facility.Pick up a manual while you're there, and read it. There are LOTS of FFR builders and owners in your area, and you can pick up a RUNNING Mustang for cheap back there as well. With a $16K budget, you can easily complete the car. One of the only tools you may want to pick up that you may not have for the FFR would be a pneumatic pop-riveter; the FFR is made of many, many, many pop-rivets. If your Dad has been reworking old cars, you've probably already got most of the tools you're going to need to finish the FFR. Call up FFR and talk to David Smith - the owner - and let him know that Meat said "hi." (508)291-3443. www.FactoryFive.com Your pal,
Meat.
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Ceririps
Canada
57 Posts |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 11:55:35 PM
First of all you are not my Pal and just because I haven't posted my opinion about every topic on this website doesn't mean anything........You have to put your 2 cents in about every topic on this entire website, I can just picture you right now you are the kid that rode the SHORT bus to school and licked the windows and ****, the kind of kid that was the butt of every joke. Maybe if you had half a life you would spend more time elsewhere doing anything besides sitting at home and giving everyone on this website your point of view you ****in loser
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 12 2003 : 09:38:40 AM
quote:
Ceririps wrote:
First of all you are not my Pal and just because I haven't posted my opinion about every topic on this website doesn't mean anything........You have to put your 2 cents in about every topic on this entire website, I can just picture you right now you are the kid that rode the SHORT bus to school and licked the windows and ****, the kind of kid that was the butt of every joke. Maybe if you had half a life you would spend more time elsewhere doing anything besides sitting at home and giving everyone on this website your point of view you ****in loser
Thank you for allowing others to see exactly the kind of person you are. I already knew it, and was just waiting for you to make a post exactly like this one. First off, I am your pal. Why? Because I don't let petty ego-driven arguments ruin my online experience. It's the internet, duh. If you are so wound up, and so upset by some online person who calls themselves a food group - if you are so frightened of someone you've probably never met - if you are so childish that you have to resort to cussing...then you're the one with the problem. I am your pal. If you're not my pal, then that's your choice. It doesn't matter to me. Further - and I loooove saying this (why? because it took me a minute to do it, and because everyone should check what they say before they put their foot in their mouths): you didn't do the research. I have not put my 2 cents in 'about every topic on this entire website.' I've posted (as of the time of this writing) 378 times. There are currently 822 topics, and 2,924 posts on 'this entire website.' In order to have posted in 'about every topic' I would have had to have made close to 822 posts. In fact, as I post multiple times in some topics, it appears that I have really only posted in just a smidge over 200 topics. Therefore, I have not posted in 'about every topic,' nor have I responded to the majority of the threads on this site. You didn't do the research, you didn't check your facts, you don't know what you're talking about. If you can't take the one minute it took me to check that out, then anything you say is suspect, and nothing you say is to be believed. Ever. Further, I took a full-sized bus to school, and I was not the butt of every joke. I was described as "smart-assed and disrespectful." I believe that you have confused your school experience with mine. Perhaps you're dyslexic, you're easily confused, or you're not properly self-medicating again. Whatever the reason, you should seek professional help. For future reference, it's best to write your post and then re-read it before you punch the "Post New Reply" button. If you find youreself writing from a position of emotional instability - as you obviously did - then you should not hit that button. It only makes you look like an idiot. You're posting from a position of weakness. As for the cussin', I refer you to one of my favorite quotes from writer Elbert Hubbard: "If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names." Don't write angry. Your pal,
Meat.
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mantacars
127 Posts |
Posted - June 12 2003 : 10:06:02 AM
Kid, you may only be in high school, but based on your most recent post, you exhibit a level of maturity to which we should all aspire.
I, too, think the "mudslinging" on this site sometimes gets out of hand. Hopefully, we all can exercise a little more tact and diplomacy in our posts to minimize negative reaction.
Additional advice on original topic:
Any specialized equipment needed (i.e. engine hoist) will be avalable for daily rental in your area.
If you desire to maximize usability in the area where you live, look for an enclosed body kit or at least one that has good fitting convertible top and side curtains. Also, need heater and defroster.
Best advice for return on your money - at your age, minimize any expenditure on kitcar or other vehicle and invest the bulk of your money toward future education (college of trade school).
Best of luck,
Mike
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Netro RS4 3
42 Posts |
Posted - June 13 2003 : 05:12:26 AM
HI!!Wow 16k is a BIG Number!! So meat was right after all. Have you considered Attack?? I think it have some advantages like every thing is included with the kit so you actually just putting it together, all parts comes from one donor car (Accord) which is cheap and you can find it almost anywhere, it looks beautiful, and I think that it worth a lot of money once you finish it. But It will cost more than 16k (16,600 for the kit and around 2k for the donor and the rest of the parts) so I thinks it’s little bet of the limit. Hi Meat, need your opinion on this!
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mepoland
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - June 16 2003 : 3:23:48 PM
How much does a paint job like the ones they show in the FFR ads cost? Thats not the kind of thing you can do in your backyard
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - June 16 2003 : 7:21:17 PM
Generally speaking, it's not the paint job that costs the money. I've seen paint done for $300 that looks great. What costs money is the prep. The better the prep, the better the finished product. You can get the bodywork/prep done either by yourself or by a professional - who will charge your ~$1,900.00.As a suggestion - if you do it yourself - go for a lighter color. Yellows, Wimbleton White (the creamy color of the original GT350s), red, etc. all show body imperfections less than do the darker colors like blue, black, etc. Hope that helps! Your pal,
Meat.
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Duneguy
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - November 16 2004 : 4:00:06 PM
I built my 1st Meyers Manx Dune buggy at age 15. I did 95% of the work myself. I was taught to weld by my neighbor,so I could shorten the floorpan. My Father helped me square the pan before welding and I cut and welded the pan myself, with no previous experience. I purchased a VW shop Manual and the HP book, Baja Bugs & Buggies by Jeff Hibbard, I read them cover to cover then started the assembly.
I used the VW seats, steering column, taillights,and anything else that would work on the buggy. I finished the buggy 1 week after my 16th birthday and was able to drive it to the 1st day of School in my Junior year.
The entire buggy cost me less then $700.00 and I paid for it by washing dishes, and caddying (sp) at the local golf course.15 years later the boy next door decided to build dune buggy after seeing my buggys. I helped him find a buggy that was reasonably priced and after he worked on it for the entire Summer he finally finished it and has it on the road for $3500 bucks. He too had no previous interest in mechanical devices. He went as far as to rebuild the VW engine and with a little help from me it has a small HP cam and a little more carburation. I think the VW platform and engine cannot be beat for getting started in the hobby. It is among the most basic of engines and drivetrains. Not to mention inexpensive.
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pantera
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - November 16 2004 : 8:54:43 PM
Well im about to go to collage and learn about cars. I want to build a Lamborghini Diablo or a Murcielago the problem is i dont have 60k to blow!. I really want the Lambo look and something that i can drive everyday even i same terrible weather contions. I have been thinking about a Testarossa replica after seing a real one in person and i think it looks ok all i need is a Fiero and some money as well as some time to build it. Theres non streach Lambos out there but im not diging the short end look. There are countless Cobra replicas but there to many of them on the road today which is crazy. Theres the Riot kitcar but the problem is its a roadster i dont want a roadster. I have seen a Bradley GT in person before and let me tell you its no something to be drivin on a daly basis because of howsmall it is and very difficult it get in and out of.I wouldnt mind having an Aztec7 kitcar they are decent for under 10grand but they are a pain in the *** acordding to this guys web site www.priceofhistoys.com i dont think it worth it. Theres a camaro based kit that im thinking of doing for my first kit. Because it uses a firebird or camaro chassis and they make decent horsepower. Not only could i build a kitcar but also a street racer so i can beat up on those civics. They also offer the k1 attack but i think its to expensive and plus i hate civics so the only way im going to build on is if i can use a fiero engine or toyota MR2. I have been thinking of a VW based kit but the problem is i cannot sit in one for to long they are very tiny cars. Do some resreach and then think about what you want to build. Then do some reasearch on that car alone for until you can find away to build it without going broke. I have beem looking for away to build a nerac lamborghini Diablo without going broke and i have been doing that for over 5years now and still i cant find a safe rout to do it. why are repilcas so expensive?!
You can find me at ***********.com or kitcentral.com as capt,ginyu |
pantera
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - November 16 2004 : 8:55:25 PM
Well im about to go to collage and learn about cars. I want to build a Lamborghini Diablo or a Murcielago the problem is i dont have 60k to blow!. I really want the Lambo look and something that i can drive everyday even i same terrible weather contions. I have been thinking about a Testarossa replica after seing a real one in person and i think it looks ok all i need is a Fiero and some money as well as some time to build it. Theres non streach Lambos out there but im not diging the short end look. There are countless Cobra replicas but there to many of them on the road today which is crazy. Theres the Riot kitcar but the problem is its a roadster i dont want a roadster. I have seen a Bradley GT in person before and let me tell you its no something to be drivin on a daly basis because of howsmall it is and very difficult it get in and out of.I wouldnt mind having an Aztec7 kitcar they are decent for under 10grand but they are a pain in the *** acordding to this guys web site www.priceofhistoys.com i dont think it worth it. Theres a camaro based kit that im thinking of doing for my first kit. Because it uses a firebird or camaro chassis and they make decent horsepower. Not only could i build a kitcar but also a street racer so i can beat up on those civics. They also offer the k1 attack but i think its to expensive and plus i hate civics so the only way im going to build on is if i can use a fiero engine or toyota MR2. I have been thinking of a VW based kit but the problem is i cannot sit in one for to long they are very tiny cars. Do some resreach and then think about what you want to build. Then do some reasearch on that car alone for until you can find away to build it without going broke. I have beem looking for away to build a nerac lamborghini Diablo without going broke and i have been doing that for over 5years now and still i cant find a safe rout to do it. why are repilcas so expensive?!
You can find me at ***********.com or kitcentral.com as capt,ginyu |
MaTT869911
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - November 16 2004 : 11:10:52 PM
here is a copy of an email i shot over to pantera a few min ago... just thinking it might be of some help to anyone who might stumble accross this mud caked post later on down the trail..
hope it helps someone!----------------
If I were you this is what id do, go buy a datsun/Nissan 240/260z and build a ******* 250GTO, there are 2 different kits out there that are probly 90-95% right on the money and could be built to a decent degree for around $15,000, another good thing about the 1962 ******* 250gto is that the originals are worth several million, so instead of having a fake lambo that the original is worth 200,000 you have a replica of a car worth 15,000,000… and if you run across a person who knows there cars then they will still respect your replica because a lot of 250gto replicas have sold from $60-100K, and the styling is NOT out dated, its a lot like a Eleanor mustang or an FFR coupe, a very classic look and a design that screams vintage and expensive. Other positives are, the datsun/Nissan is a well known plat form and easy to work on and upgrade performance wise, and is capable of a V8, the standard V6 is great for daily driving, hope this is of some sort of help Thanks for your time Matt http://www.zcarkits.com/ there was another website that offered the same kit but cheaper, but didn’t offer all the accessories as zkitcars do a little more research on kitcars im sure u can find it, I think its name was thunderranch? Maybe?
'96 Jaguar XJ6(burgundy)
'93 Dodge Stealth ES
'83 Jaguar XJ6(hunter)
'80 Mercedes-Benz 300CD
'77 MG B
soon to be mine
00-01 S2000 AUG-NOV
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pantera
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - November 17 2004 : 02:13:25 AM
Matt thanks for the link to that site im thinking of building one.
The car is decent not bad for a donnor car and since its a Zcar it will be easy to get after market parts for it. The design isnt out dated like you said. Plus the could be built in a week. I can check on buying a Zcar or trading my caddillac for a nice one without rust. Then i can buy the body for and put tons of after market goods in it.
why are repilcas so expensive?!
You can find me at ***********.com or kitcentral.com as capt,ginyu |
MaTT869911
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - November 17 2004 : 09:32:13 AM
glad i could be of some help... keep me posted on ur progress id love to see it!Matt '96 Jaguar XJ6(burgundy)
'93 Dodge Stealth ES
'83 Jaguar XJ6(hunter)
'80 Mercedes-Benz 300CD
'77 MG B
soon to be mine
00-01 S2000 AUG-NOV |
jspbtown
95 Posts |
Posted - November 17 2004 : 11:33:22 AM
Not to burst a bubble...but that car is gonna take you much, much, much more than a week to complete. The "50-60 hours needed to complete" is a classic kit car manufacturer line. Possibly a competant body man with all the tools and experiences could complete it in a week, but not you. I would guess that car would take you 6 months to a year of working on between work or school or both. Plus you need alot of tools including a DA sander and a compressor. Not that it can't be done by hand, but its gonna take some significant time. Plus it takes skill to bond fiberglass to metal and not have it crack. Like I said in my message a long time ago...learn on something that won't break the bank.
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First car
