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 Topic  |
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kitcarman
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - May 03 2003 : 12:27:37 AM
Maty, after reading a lot of your posts over the last few months, I get the impression you are wildly jumping from kit to kit in your mind. Vipers, Boxers, Benzs, & a 250 GT, just in this one thread.Just a suggestion, but if you spend all of your time "dream jumping" from car to car, it takes away time from actually working toward dream car. Again, just a suggestion, but you may want to just take some time and decide, what SINGLE car do I really want to build and drive right now. Once you have that figured out, then you can start doing all of the research on what kit is best for you. And more importantly, start making your dream car a reality. To keep asking for info for this car and that car when you haven't seriously commited to anything is not a productive use of your time. KITCARMAN 
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2003 : 11:57:11 PM
I think you are right about the Beetle, but 911 is rear-engined not middle engined. You´re right about the "pick-up truck boxster" you described. So, for a 911 (or boxter) a custom chasis would be better? I believe a Beetle was nice for a 911... well, I´m wrong again...You´re right, it´s not the kind of kit for a first project, I just was asking. Same with the Maserati. I believe that a donor with correct wheelbase and almost the same windshield could make it an "easy" project. But (again with the 911) if I want a 996 with a nice engine (V6 or a L4 with turbo, just two examples I found without too much thinking), can I use the transmision from a front-traction car, right? in that case, a custom chasis would be better than a Beetle one (for a 996 or an early 80s 911 turbo, or even a boxter)? A car here called VW Gol (I guess it has never been sold in US) has 2358 mm as wheelbase (the 996 is 2350 and the GT2 is 2355 mm, it has the "perfect" wheelbase). It´s a front traction car with a 5 speed manual transmision. It has a L4 1.6 engine, 82 HP (not a cool engine). I´m not an ingeneer, but can I "rotate" the car (so the front of the car now it´s the back, like it´s running in reverse) and modify the rear suspension (now it will be in the front of the car) to make a rear engined, rear traction car? It´s just a crazy idea I had some days ago. It doesn´t seem easy, but with another engine, it would be a wondeful chasis for a 996. The only thing I still can´t understand is that if I rotate the car as I said, then I would have to rotate the transmision (Otherwhise it would run in reverse to the front), but I don´t know if this can be done. I repeat, it´s just a cray idea. I guess that it´s impossible. Anyway, can I use this donor (even if I have to modify the rear of the car instead of rotating it) or do you recommend a custom chasis? Another question: the transmision from a front engined car can be used in a Diablo replica (or ******* 355... any mid-engined car? kitcarman: you´re right. I´m still searching for my "dream car". I want to know all the options avaible, and people in this forum is a lot more informed that me. That´s why I ask tons of questions. But If I can really find some complete and cheap (well....... impossible) kit for a Diablo Roadster or a XJ220 my problem will be solved. A 911 would be terrific, but I would like to build a 996 Carrera Cabrio, or an early 80s 911 Turbo Cabrio (that big rear spoiler, I love it!) and all the parts I found are for coupes, not cabrios. I asked for many other kits, because I want to consider other options. A Miura or Miura roadster will be amazing, and a XK140 Roadster is beautiful too. tanks all of you |
QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2003 : 5:39:44 PM
Hello again,
You can't rotate the engine and transmision because your car will go backward instead of foward and... because you will have the steering in the rear wheels!!
Serious, with a custom chassis you can choose the wheelbase you want and it will be easier and stiffer than the modifications you want to do.
You can use a front engined donor in a mid-engined project but you need a custom chassis (again).
The Gol is OK for a Lambo or XJ220 but it will be underpowered and will sound ugly.;)
In the Boxter case, the Gol has a longitudinal engine and you will need more room for it (so you will have a shorter cockpit). Gols and old Renaults are bad ideas, you can better use a transverse engined Fiat or Renault Clio instead.
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2003 : 10:57:23 PM
quote:
You can't rotate the engine and transmision because your car will go backward instead of foward and... because you will have the steering in the rear wheels!!
I told you it was a crazy idea, but I believe you can modificate the steering, so it will be in the front of the car. I think it´s like building a custom chasis, but you just have to do the front suspension... anyway, it was an idea I had and just thatBut, what if I just take the engine, transmision and clutch and "move them to a middle engine position? The steering will remain in the front. Another crazy idea, just that. But, if it is possible, it will be easy to do that on a front traction car instead of getting a fiero (for me of course). I just posted that idea about the 1st generation VW Gol because it was like an "example" of what I mean. Several front traction cars have the "correct" wheelbase for some cars (like the Gol for the 996) but I wanted to know if this job can be done (the one in the second paragraph of this post, because it can be used for mid-engined replicas, the older post about the VW Gol it´s just for rear-engined cars) Of course, If I´m doing this I will use another engine (I talked about the Gol because of it´s wheelbase). The original engine isn´t good for a 911 (well..... isn´t good for most replicas of supercars). What do you think it´s easy (and / or better)? a complete custom chasis or modifying one? Because (just an example, nothing more than that) an old Peugeot 404 has the same wheelbase of a Diablo VT (if I´m right it´s 2650 mm.), so the suspension is the only thing to work on (of course, moving the engine and all that has to be done too, but I´m just talking about the chasis, the engine would be replaced in that case for a V8 or something like that). BTW: Original Diablo has a 5 speed gearbox? not 6-speed? BTW2: what´s the cheapest kit of a real car? and what are the cheapest Diablo and ******* kits? just to know BTW3: For making a car from scrath (I´m talking about the XJ220) what do you recommend me? I know how to use Autocad (I´m not a professional, but have done dome custom desings before), but don´t know where to start. I have pics, info and more info on that car. Never seen one (I think there is not even a single one in my country). I want to know what is the best way (and of course, what is the cheapest way too) for doing this. I know it´s not a good first project, but I´m just asking to know. Shipping a kit to my country is kind of expensive and maybe building a custom one is cheaper (I´m sure not better, just cheaper). Thank you |
swoodard23
204 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 08:06:30 AM
No offense Matty but I don't think you have a clue of what you are talking about. If you move the engine and transmission to the middle of the car, then you have just moved the front wheels to the middle of the car and have no wheels in front! The axles connect directly to the tranny in a front wheel drive car and there is no driveshaft like rear wheel drive cars. Another point you need to look into is most of the cars you have thought about using as donors are unibody cars. You can't just take off the body and have a frame because the body is the frame. With unibody cars you have to keep the basic shape of the vehicle or do a huge amount of modification and fabrication. I would stick with a VW donor if I were you. Although, I think you need to do a lot more research and assessment of your own skills before you start anything. I have a website on how to convert a beetle to mid engine and you can put a V6 or a V8 in it. I will post it later.
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 08:47:21 AM
Maty, much as I appreciate your enthusiasm, you're starting to give me a headache. No offense.Here's some basic ground rules:
- If the car is a unibody, then you cannot change the position of any drivetrain components.
- If the car has a chassis, then you cannot change the position of any drivetrain components without modification to the chassis.
- If the car is FWD, then you cannot make it a mid-engined car without (a) creating a new front suspension system, (b) creating a new mid-engine suspension system.
- A rear-engine car cannot be made mid-engine just by moving the engine. The term "rear-engine" denotes that the engine is located behind the rear wheels, the term "mid-engine" denotes that the engine is located over or in front of the rear wheels.
- Wheelbase doesn't mean anything unless the drivetrain is in the proper position. You cannot make a Peugot a Diablo no matter how hard you try, because the engine would stick through the hood. You would have much better luck with either an MR2, Fiero, or VW.
- Use the dimensions of the donor car and the kit car when looking at it to determine whether the car is even close to the right 'shape.' If it's not, then you should discard the idea and move on.
There are more rules, but these are the basic ones you need to follow. Also, you should think about picking up some chassis design books.Finally, the dollars you're using are probably not U.S. dollars. Keep that in mind. Your pal,
Meat.
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swoodard23
204 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 08:53:56 AM
Maty,
Here is the website. Once again I suggest you evaluate your skill level before you proceed.
http://nova-international.net/data/chassis.htm
This should get you started and stir up more crazy ideas in your head. Good luck, you're going to need it.
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QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 08:58:37 AM
"I told you it was a crazy idea, but I believe you can modificate the steering, so it will be in the front of the car. I think it´s like building a custom chasis, but you just have to do the front suspension... anyway, it was an idea I had and just that"This is not like building a custom chassis. It is far more complicate because you are talking about changing all the components places in an existing chassis. "But, what if I just take the engine, transmision and clutch and "move them to a middle engine position? The steering will remain in the front. Another crazy idea, just that. But, if it is possible, it will be easy to do that on a front traction car instead of getting a fiero (for me of course)." This isn´t what you say in your previous post. You use the word ROTATE.
The problem with this idea is the same that your previus paragraph. To move back the components in an existing chassis is harder than building a new chassis. "What do you think it´s easy (and / or better)? a complete custom chasis or modifying one? Because (just an example, nothing more than that) an old Peugeot 404 has the same wheelbase of a Diablo VT (if I´m right it´s 2650 mm.), so the suspension is the only thing to work on (of course, moving the engine and all that has to be done too, but I´m just talking about the chasis, the engine would be replaced in that case for a V8 or something like that)." The easiest thing to do depends on the project you choose. If you want to do a rebody on an existing car, it´s easier to use an original chassis. If you want to build an exact replica of a car and you don´t have a similar car to start with, you will have to build your chassis.
You can´t select your donor just comparing the wheelbases. All cars built in Argentina in the last 20 years (and most built before) are unitized monocoque structures, that´s mean they have no chassis. The whole car is a supporting structure. If you chop this cars roofs (for example) and you keep only the floor of them, You will need to add so many tubes to stiff it that it will be easier to build a custom chassis.
You can´t "take this part from here and put it there" for the same reasons. Just following your example, the 404 has a rigid rear axle, this part must be free to move up and down freely to have a suspesion. If you move the engine and trans closer enough to the axle
you will need them moving up and down with the axle, and this is completely crazy (I insist, I´m just following the 404 example). "BTW: Original Diablo has a 5 speed gearbox? not 6-speed?" Yes, old Diablos where 5 speed. "BTW2: what´s the cheapest kit of a real car? and what are the cheapest Diablo and ******* kits? just to know" The cheapest kits are Lotus Seven lookalike. Diablos and *******s depends on what you want: Rebodies, custom chassis, interior trims, etc. "BTW3: For making a car from scrath (I´m talking about the XJ220) what do you recommend me? I know how to use Autocad (I´m not a professional, but have done dome custom desings before), but don´t know where to start. I have pics, info and more info on that car. Never seen one (I think there is not even a single one in my country). I want to know what is the best way (and of course, what is the cheapest way too) for doing this. I know it´s not a good first project, but I´m just asking to know. Shipping a kit to my country is kind of expensive and maybe building a custom one is cheaper (I´m sure not better, just cheaper)." First of all, you may be sure of your skills and knowledge about the different building metods. Reading your post it´s clear that you have never done something like this and you are far from being an engineer.
For example, to built a fiberglass mould you need plenty of skills in this kind of materials. It will have to invest about u$s13000 in someone to build an easy mould for a piece of 150 kg in your country (please, tell me if you know someone who can make it for less), and we are not talking about building a complex car like the XJ220. Ah! and you will need a 1:1 model to reach this stage.
But don´t stop because of my hard words, everything can be done if you are decided to!!! Lots of people has succeded before in buildong machines far more difficult than a car. Just imagine 100 years back it was impossible to fly in a heavier than air machine, and now the man can go to the space!
Lots of people has built specials in your coutry before, just look your TV on Sunday afternoon and you will see them. May be the ones who make that program can put you in contact with them. And don´t forget to increase your skills too! Best regards.
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swoodard23
204 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 09:07:11 AM
 a picture of the chasis before reinforcements have been added
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QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 09:39:58 AM
quote:
Finally, the dollars you're using are probably not U.S. dollars. Keep that in mind.
Don´t keep this in mind!!
He IS talking about U.S. dollars. And that´s why he is always asking about cars you will never think in building a kit car (like the Vette).
Believe me, Meat. His prices are correct for the Argentinian market. Best regards.
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 1:45:22 PM
quote:
quote:
Finally, the dollars you're using are probably not U.S. dollars. Keep that in mind.
Don´t keep this in mind!!
He IS talking about U.S. dollars. And that´s why he is always asking about cars you will never think in building a kit car (like the Vette).
Believe me, Meat. His prices are correct for the Argentinian market. Best regards.
yes, you´re right. I am talking about US Dollars. 1 dollar is about 2,8 pesos in Argentina. All the prices I posted were in dollars. And you´re right, some cars i was looking for aren´t replicated because of that, but here are highly overpriced (if you can find one).
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 2:35:51 PM
I appreciate all of you (even the ones that almost called me "stupid"... just joking). Of course I´m just posting ideas without too much knowledge. I´m not a mechanical ingeneer. I believe all of you were just "dreamers" when started knowing what kit cars was about. You´re a lot more experienced that me, that´s why I ask many silly things. You know that they are silly because perhaps you had the same question some time ago, or you are very well informed and know that what I think is impossible.Anyway, that´s what I want. If you told me "hey, you´re crazy", "maybe, but what about if you...." it´s fine. Thats what I want, people that knows what can or can´t be done. Even if you told me that all my ideas are completely stupid, that´s fine, that´s what I´m asking. I guess what this forum is about: turning ignorant people like me into informed people like you, right? helping people with your knowledge? meat, sorry about your headache. But please, I know what a rear and middle engined cars are. I understand that my questions are too stupid, but I want to know more. I guess you (and almost everyone when first know about kit cars) was full of enthusiasm, and thinking on things that you know now are impossible. I think you get me, right? No offense, I appreciate all your help. You have been Helpful with me and with everybody you have answer to. About your rules, they are really helpful, but I have a doubt: you said that in a unibody you can´t change the drivetrain, but in another rule:
quote:
If the car is FWD, then you cannot make it a mid-engined car without (a) creating a new front suspension system, (b) creating a new mid-engine suspension system.
That´s what I was asking, because modifying a chasis is cheaper (not better I guess) than creating one. But I guess this rule don´t apply to a unibody car, right? Anyway, modificating a chasis is cheaper than creating one, right?QKracha, I don´t know if someone can make it for less than that. I know of a place here (in my town) that make molds for metallic parts (car parts too), don´t know if they are useful for fiberglass, of if they do special molds for fiberglass. I know they don´t need a 1:1 model (of course it would be better if they have one), they just need an accurate model (don´t know the scale they need, and the price). I´ll see if I can get more info on them. I have a 1:20 (or 1:25, something like that, I´m not in my home right now) XJ220, maybe it can be used. You´re right, I´ll have to learn more about fiberglass to use a mold anyway. But having a XJ220 mold is the first step. I would practise with little useless parts to get experience with fiberglass, then start with the body. Do you know any sites that can be useful for me (about fiberglas)? When doing a custom model, where do I get the glass from? I believe from a similar car I can get the windshield, but don´t know for sure. Thanks guys |
QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 3:06:26 PM
I think nobody has call you stupid, it´s just they are getting a bit nervious with so many different questions. ;)
Sawing an unibody car is not the easiest way to build a custom chassis. It will be HARDER and EXPENSIVE to do this.
Stamping metal has nothing to do with fiberglass, I think they can´t help you.
There are many pages about do it yourself with fiberglass but no one comes to my mind right now, let me search for them and I will tell you.
The glass from your car can be from a standard one (similar to the one you want) because laminating it will be expensive. If the glass is plannar you can cut it.Best regards. P.D.: Which town are you from?
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meat
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 4:53:58 PM
I have never called you stupid, Maty. Your questions are, however, all over the board. That's not a bad thing, but you're asking the same question over and over in a different way. That's where the headache is coming from.I want to recommend - before you do anything - you get a book on chassis building, and a book on fiberglass. Tex Smith makes a pretty great book on introductory fiberglass called "How To Build Fiberglass Hot Rods, Customs And Kit Cars," and it's available from all kinds of places, like Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1884089100/cobratrader/002-0777185-2058429 Also, there's a great book by Herb Adams called "Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building & Tuning for High Performance Handling" which is also available through Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557880557/cobratrader/002-0777185-2058429 As well as "Car Builder's Handbook Tips and Techniques for Builders of Kit Cars and Street Rods" by Doug McCleary: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557882789/cobratrader/002-0777185-2058429 I want you to go to my website, and look through the bookstore. do a search on fibreglass and chassis. You'll find a whole bunch of information that will give you a lot of information in a very short time. The page on my site you should look at is: http://cobratrader.com/bookstore.html These are all books that I have in my library, and that I have found helpful. They will help you out as well. And, finally, if cars really are that expensive down in your country, I have a better idea: buy cars up here, and take thme down there and sell them. I'll even volunteer to find the cars. Your pal,
Meat.
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2003 : 11:29:31 PM
quote:
I think nobody has call you stupid, it´s just they are getting a bit nervious with so many different questions. ;)
No...... I´mean.... but... ok, you´re right. Too many questions, but I don´t have any other person to asked them. Sorry guys, I promise not to asked too many things in the future.I know nobody has called me stupid, it was just a joke. It wasn´t directed to you meat, it wasn´t directed to anyone. It was just a joke. I will be a complete stupid if I start insulting you after all the help you gave me. I now I can trust in your answers, as I told you, you now a lot more than me, that´s why most of my question are silly. QKracha: So their molds are useless? well, perhaps they can do fiberglass molds too, don´t know, I´ll try to get more info from them. I now for sure that they also do metal pieces for machines and engines. meat: Thank you for the info about the books. I´ll see if I can find one in spanish (maybe the books you posted are translated). I´ll start reading a lot. quote:
And, finally, if cars really are that expensive down in your country, I have a better idea: buy cars up here, and take thme down there and sell them. I'll even volunteer to find the cars.
I´ll think on that. Actually I had the same idea som time ago. I´ll try to fin out about taxes, shipping and that things, to see if it´s actually a good business. Anyway, thanks for you offer, I´ll consider it (maybe that way I can get my 69 Vette).Only two things I never asked before:
1) I want to know more about glass. Custom glasses can be done? For Diablos and that kind of cars, do you people use custom glass or you take it from another car? What kind of glass can be laminated?
2)What´s the price range for 70s Corvettes (just to know) Thanks guys
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QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2003 : 07:59:24 AM
Here is a nice link for you:
http://www.statikdesign.com/scratchbuilt/This guy is designing his own car and has linked his page to a lot of usefull pages.
There is a lot of information in the link page of this web, too. It is possible to build a custom curved glass but you need a model and the work is expensive. About buying cars in US and selling them in Argentina, I find it rather difficult. In the nineties they open the importation of classic and historic cars, but this genereted many "dark businnesses" and the importation was closed. Actually, I understand it is prohibited the importation of any kind of used cars. The market prices are the reflex of current custom politics, if it is cheaper to import cars there, the prices would go down. Best regards.
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Maty_280ZX
Argentina
118 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2003 : 1:27:11 PM
Thanks for the link.quote:
About buying cars in US and selling them in Argentina, I find it rather difficult. In the nineties they open the importation of classic and historic cars, but this genereted many "dark businnesses" and the importation was closed. Actually, I understand it is prohibited the importation of any kind of used cars. The market prices are the reflex of current custom politics, if it is cheaper to import cars there, the prices would go down.
Are you sure about that? If that´s true, then you can´t import any used car? Or it´s just more expensive than it was some years before?
Anyway, it´s a problem.Sorry, I forgot to tell you, I´m from Comodoro Rivadavia; are you from Argentina (QKracha, your nick is related with CQC?) Thanks
Maty
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QKracha
90 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2003 : 07:29:58 AM
Everything is possible, so may be possible to import an used car but probably will cost more than buying a previously imported car.
Do you know the Sarazola family from Comodoro?
Yo soy de Buenos Aires, mi viejo es hijo de un ex empleado del Banco Nación y creció por toda la patagonia, incluso en Comodoro. Coco (Sarazola) es un gran amigo de mi viejo. También tengo tías y primos allí.
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Best Viper kit?
