I am curious about something. I see so many companies offering kits. Is the business really that good? Can a company sell enough $10,000 kits to run a business long term? Does anyone here know first hand what the industry sales volume is?

I ask because I have been strongly considering designing a kit of my own. Perhaps a Murcielago or Saleen S7. I have an engineering and construction background and have worked on cars all my life. I hesitate, however, to invest the startup money without some metric to judge the income potential.

Thanks in advance,
HLC

The downside is that if you build a Murcielago the "they" will be Chrysler attorneys.

There are alot of kit car companies out there. The majority of them make replicas of cars that are not trade dressed (much as Shelby likes to claim that he has those rights), such as the Cobra; a car that people grew up lusting after, but don't necessarily have the financial means to pick up a real one.

In North America, the market is pretty much Cobra replicas. In EU and other places, you'll find a greater selection of original ideas.

You really don't need much to start a kit car company. In fact, you can actually buy out other companies. Shell Valley did.

It doesn't cost much to start a kit car company. It takes alot to make a great kit car company. If you put together a kit that is (1) easy to assemble, (2) inexpensive, (3) uses readily available parts from a single donor source, you'll be The Man. FFR started that way. Their kit wasn't really all that great to start with, but it could be assembled, which not all kits can.

If you want any help, I'll do my best to help you out. However, I would stay away from making a replica of a current production car or any ******* unless you like hanging out with lawyers.

Your pal,
Meat.

Do you have any idea how many kits FFR sells a year?

About the Murcielago: did Chrysler buy Lamborghini? I ask because there are tons of Diablo kits out there.

Thanks again for the all the help, its really appreciated.

quote:

---

Thanks Meat. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge about the kit car industry.

Do you have any idea how many kits FFR sells a year?

About the Murcielago: did Chrysler buy Lamborghini? I ask because there are tons of Diablo kits out there.

Thanks again for the all the help, its really appreciated.

---

If I decide to do a kit, my first was going to be based on the Fiero chassis. I have contemplated other donor options as well. I thought about the F-body Camaro but was concerned with the fact that it is a front engine and wouldn't give the final appearance of today's exotics. What do you think about that?

I thought about doing an MT900 or Saleen based on the Fiero chassis with proper stretch and width adjustments. I had a feeling Saleen wouldn't appreciate having the S7 available in a complete kit and would probably sue my pants off. I asked Warren Mosler in his message board ( www.moslerauto.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html )if he would seek any litigation and he never responded which is a big "YES" to me (even though he plans to produce classic Mustang kits in the future).

So my final thought was to produce a kit combining some features of the S7 and the MT900 into an original design for the Fiero chassis. What do you think?

From the business side: It sounds as though the business will be adequate if I do a good job with the kit. I guess word of mouth will be the factor. I am not looking to make a fortune, just enough to pay for the business and pay for my projects. I want to keep my day job.

http://www.moslerauto.com/mt900web/images/

I actually saw one of these cars over at a local dealership - Corvette Mike - when I was looking at getting a Shelby Series One. It's much smaller than it looks (but it's bigger than the S7...go figure!), and it has a plexiglass "wing" on the back that is removed for photography purposes, but is apparently necessary to keep the rear end planted.

The S7 looks much more menacing than the Mosler, in my opinion...but then again, Jaws put the fear of sharks deep in my psyche, so anything with gills scares me

The Mosler is a much cleaner design, in my opinion, and looks slippery. If you're going to use a Fiero as a donor, keep in mind these specs:

Mosler
Wheelbase 109
Length 189
Width 79
Height 44.5

Saleen
Wheelbase 106.25
Length 188
Width 78.3
Height 41

Fiero
Wheelbase 93.4
Length 162.8
Width 69
Height 46.9

The BIGGEST problem you're going to run into is going to be that of dimension; if the car doesn't 'look' right then it's going to be thought of as a kit. Many people have never seen a Mosler or a Saleen except in pictures. If you can do the Ford thing that they did with the new GT (keep the look the same, but increase the overall dimensions proportionally), then you'll have a winner.

That being said, you're going to have to lengthen the wheelbase of the Fiero; it's too damned short for either car. You can also 'tilt' the fiero a bit when you do that to get a better rake to the windshield (IFG did this when they did their Testarosa replica, and it really did make the car look better). Once you do that, you'll be in a better position to judge how the car will look.

Hope that helps a bit!

Your pal,
Meat.

I haven't seen the S7 or the MT900 in person but have seen many photos on the Net. I like both a lot. I think both designs could be combined into a single design with excellent appeal. What do you think?

For me to be happy with the outcome of such a kit, it will have to be the correct length and width, or at least very, very close. I don't want to shrink it down a great deal just to conform to the chassis. I believe the Fiero chassis is a viable option as long as I can widen it. I know how to stretch it, but I don't really know much about widening a chassis. I am sure I could figure it out, but if you could direct me to a tutorial or any info on the subject, I would appreciate it.

Thanks again,
HLC

Actually, that is a very viable option for me because I am quite sure I would spend more in engineering time for the same result. That kit allows up to a six (eight in rear) inch increase in width (track). It is still about 3.5 to 4 inches shy of the MT900 or S7 but I think its enough to give me the proportions I need to make the kit work.

How is the investor angle doing?

Regards

GavinR

quote:

---

This sounds a very interesting project, how about designing your own chassis, then you can have whatever wheelbase and track you want. Also you're not so restricted to which components you can or can't use.

How is the investor angle doing?

Regards

GavinR

---

It appears that many people are wanting to get away from rebodys. People are wanting the exotic replica WITH performance. So therefore I believe I have decided to go with an original performance chassis on this project.

Here are my next questions:
Should I require a donor for brake and steering parts?
Should I include wheels?
Does anyone know who makes the auto glass for the S7?
Does anyone know a really good source for scissor door hardware?
Any special suggestions?

Thanks again!

The BEST thing you can do is to make sure that the parts are available off-the-shelf from Napa or Kragen or Pep Boys. If you use a 'stock' setup - like, for instance, brakes and calipers off of a Mustang (a high production car with a strong aftermarket) - you'll do two things for the kit builder: you'll allow him/her to use a relatively inexpensive setup, and you'll have created a place where the builder can imprint their own vision of what a performance car should be...Sure, they could use a stock setup ... but (if you use a stock setup off of a performance car) they could also get a Wilwood setup that will fit in exactly the same mount points. Keep your car as "non-exotic" as possible in the mechanical arena, and use your creativity on the design and layout.

You should not include wheels, but you should make sure that your bolt pattern is set up as a "common" one, so that there are a wide variety of wheels are available...for instance, there are alot more Camaros out there with a five-bolt pattern than there are Yugos with a four bolt pattern.

The hinges and latches aren't all that exotic for a scissor door; the doors aren't nearly as heavy on a kit car as they are on a production car. You could reuse the latch mechanism, and create a smaller, more narrow hinge...or you could pick up Street Rodder magazine and look at some of the hinge setups that they use on the 32-34 Fords.

The only special suggestion I would make would be to build the car the way YOU'D want it done.

My GT40 is built around a single donor, with a price point of $14,900. The kit will include all of the fasteners and hardware necessary to complete the vehicle. There are companies that don't do this; they provide the kit, give you a list of parts you need, and then you're on your own as far as the fasteners go. The BEST advertisement for your kit, is a completed car. If you make your kit "buildable" then you'll sell more cars. If it takes years and years to complete the kit, people may lose interest, and the car won't get finished.

Think of every completed car as two more sales. Do everything you can to make sure that the builder has every single part they need to finish the car, and they'll tell two friends. And so on. And so on...

Your pal,
Meat.

I thought about using the 84-93 Corvette as the donor. I like the C4 because you can find them for around $6000 or so and because there are so many great parts that can be used. Four wheel disc brakes, excellent steering assembly, and of course, the engine. The rear suspension would have to be addressed though.

However, now you have me thinking about the Mustang. I don't know much about the newer models. Do they have upper and lower a-arms, four wheel disc brakes, high HP motors? I recently saw an article (I don't know where) about some shop getting over 400 HP from a Ford 302 with a price of just $2500. That’s pretty outstanding to me. But once again I have to say it, I don’t know much about the newer model mustangs. As far as I know, the engines might be powerful but lack in other areas.

Meat, what are you going with as the donor for your GT40?

The single-donor GT40 replica I'm gearing up for changes the MacPherson strut over to a tubular upper while utilizing the stock lower. You need to come up with a bracket that will bolt to the upright and give you the proper geometry for the front suspension. As the 'idea man' I have no idea what the proper geometry is for a mid-engined car...I hired an engineer to figure that out.

Your pal,
Meat.

Your pal,
Meat.

There are various easy to use suspension design programs on the market for example http://www.auto-ware.com/index.htm

or just look under the front of meats GT40!!!

GavinR

Hey meat, how is the GT40 coming? Any pics yets?

It is certainly easier than using string computers (Staniforth?) and a lot quicker.

Hope this helps.

Regards

GavinR

Oh, did you sign up for Meats updates? I've had a couple showing dashboards etc and I believe there is a link from his website. Would like to see a few exterior shots.

We're digitizing the suspension parts from the donor car this week to make sure we're right on as far as the suspension goes. Maybe some pics of the suspension set up next?

Your pal,
Meat.

Are you digitizing them "in house"? Do you own the equipment that allows you to scan parts?

Thanks,
HLC

Chassis
There has been a lot of debate on the issue (you can search through the old threads if you want)of donor vs space frame chassis. In short, I think that many production vehicles were designed around certain variables, such as weight and power. Making changes to the car (including adding a more powerful engine) may put more stress/torque on places that have notbeen designed to support it. The Fiero is basically just a ladder frame chassis once you mess with the roof. Proponents of the 'donor car' issue (I'm mostly talking about Fieros here) say that their chassis holds up fine. To their credit, I haven't heard about a bad accident related to a donor chasis. However, many of these donors have been *seriously* modified with sub frames and structural beams. Essential they become space frames with a tub in the middle. For a true performance machine I think we can all agree that a space frame is best. If you just want to put a mild setup in, and make it a casual driver, then maybe a donor will work.

Donor Parts
I agree with Meat/everyone else. Mustang or Corvette seems the way to go just bc of the large aftermarket available. One guy I met here in Austin who's developing a kit is using a Corvette suspension setup. In a way, you might also add to the marketability of the car - Corvette is a recognized name that some people may latch onto. I want to echo what Meat said: Whatever donor you pic, make sure the parts are not exotic and super expensive.

Books
I also echo the Chassis Engineering book by Herb Adams - it's really worth the $. Also, I really like the Engineering to Win, Prepare to Win, Tune to Win, etc series by Carrol Smith. I've looked through the $15/day Diablo book and I wasn't too impressed. Maybe this was an old version? It wasn't very long and much of the info could be found on the Net or athered form personal build diaries. I consider Fletch's site (lambolounge.com) a much better resource (plus it's free). There's also a book titled The Car Buildeer's Handbook. I think it gives you a decent overview but it doesn't gio into many details. I would borrow/check this out just to give it a look-through.

3D Scanning/Foam Prototyping
IN reference to the ad Meat linked to (http://kitcars.com/Classifieds/AdDetails.asp?classified_id=1767): I emailed the guy a week or two ago and we exchanged a few short emails about their services. They have a website for their work (3D signs and such) but I don't have the link on this computer. Their service would be the best for anyone trying to build a replica. If it is something of your own design (and you don't have a scalem odel) then it might be more difficult. I was told that they cannot replicate an exisiting 3D model unless it has the tool paths programmed into it (which they apperantly generate during scanning). I've done some 2 axis CNC machining before, and porgramming your own toold path seems like a lot of work for a 3D model. Ormaybe there was some sort of communication mishap and I'm not understanding them right - and maybe they can create the tool path. IN any case, considering that I am designing a 1-time build car, I could not justify the 3500 for the foam.

Kit Car Business
I agree with Meat - a car than can be assembled is worth a lot in marketing. I have read many posts on other forums where companies get trashed over problems, Some of these are just b/c they were too lazy to do it the right way, or maybe b/c they just don't care. Bad comments really hurt your sales. Think about if you want to be the 'low price leader' or the 'quality leader'. Usually you can't try and do both b/c you'll scatter your sales. Having less quality than the 'quality leader' but higher prices than the 'low price leader' might not garner as many sales as being one or the other. But if your car is unique, then that's a niche in itself. Just make sure that it can be built and provide the support.

Some of you may want to look through my site. I've collected some info in my quest to build my own 'dreamcar'.

KitCars.com Forums

Aardvark Solutions